Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/pc/text/spacedig/v15_0/v15no036.txt

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Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 11:40:41
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V15 #036
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Sat, 25 Jul 92       Volume 15 : Issue 036

Today's Topics:
           Antimatter (was propulsion questions)  (2 msgs)
                      Antiproton-boosted fission
                        Clinton Space Position
                            Facility Tours
                   first man on moon date and time
                    GPS for satellite positioning
                     Methods for meteor avoidance
                More Lunar Resource Mapper Information
                         Propulsion questions
                         Radiative heat loss
                 Sat->Ground Optical Communications?
     Star Trek and public perception of space/science/engineering
          Testers for Astronomy  -or- Get your act together!
                      UFO pics from the shuttle
                            Whales (SETI)
                         Whales and dolphins

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 02:36:32 CST
From: Michael Ellis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antimatter (was propulsion questions)
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Andrew Haveland-Robinson) writes:

>
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
> >>OK, now to play earths advocate, what kind of danger does releasing all tha
> >>incandescent gas, etc. cause.
> >
> >None whatsoever.  It's hot hydrogen.  The Sun pumps out billions of tons
> >of hot hydrogen every second.
>
> But that's on the Sun, not in the Earth's atmosphere!
>
> It's a bit like saying, global thermonuclear war is harmless as the Sun
> releases that much energy every millisecond! :-)
>
> I wouldn't like to be too near...
>
> Andy
> ~~~~
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Haveland-Robinson Associates        | Email: [e-mail]
> | Pine Cottage, Osea Island, Essex    |        [e-mail]
> | CM9 8UH England.  0621-88756        | Also:  081-800 1708  081-802 4502
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't want to be too terribly near to a Shuttle launch either. Or a
smoking gas station attendant for that matter.

No one is talking about dropping an anti-iron connonball onto a city.
Nor would all this antimatter and matter be combined all at once.
Payloads of men and equipment can only take so many G's. However, I
suppose a launchpad explosion would be a particularly nasty thing.

Can anyone say whether an antimatter fueled launch vehicle accident would
be worse, the same, or perhaps less (no need to lift all that
heavy fuel) than a conventionally fueled rocket?


Self-admittedly barely a layperson,

Mike

;--- (Michael Ellis) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: [e-mail]
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:04:22 GMT
From: James Davis Nicoll <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antimatter (was propulsion questions)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Ellis) writes:
>
>I wouldn't want to be too terribly near to a Shuttle launch either. Or a
>smoking gas station attendant for that matter.
>
>No one is talking about dropping an anti-iron connonball onto a city.
>Nor would all this antimatter and matter be combined all at once.
>Payloads of men and equipment can only take so many G's. However, I
>suppose a launchpad explosion would be a particularly nasty thing.
>
>Can anyone say whether an antimatter fueled launch vehicle accident would
>be worse, the same, or perhaps less (no need to lift all that
>heavy fuel) than a conventionally fueled rocket?

    Given that one can mix the antimatter-reaction mass ratio to get
the Vexhaust one wants, the dangers of standing in the vicinity of the
exhaust of an antimatter powered ship could be *identical* to that of
standing inthe vicinity of a conventional ship.

                            James Nicoll

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 16:20:22 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antiproton-boosted fission
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thomas J. Nugent) writes:
>>...Another E.E. Smith idea...
>
>Unrelated: Weren't books like the Skylark series and the Lensman series
>(both by E.E. Smith) written sometime in the thirties?  As in, he was
>simply ignoring the physics which said one simply could not accelerate
>to a speed faster than that of light?

Most of the Skylark and Lensman books do indeed date to the 30s.  However,
Smith wasn't ignoring relativity, just asserting -- for fictional purposes --
that it was wrong.  (Remember that it was somewhat less solidly established
at the time.)  Although it may have been the result of later revision, in
at least one of the books, the characters comment on this.  "We're [a long
way] from home."  "Didn't Einstein say we couldn't exceed the speed of
light?"  "That was theory; this distance is experimental fact."
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:45:15 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clinton Space Position
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Bunge) writes:
>administrations have failed to establish priorities, and because
>they have not matched program needs with available resources, NASA
>has been saddled with more missions than it can successfully
>accomplish.

Translation:  we're going to kill some of the NASA programs, although
of course we're not going to tell you which ones.

>The Reagan and Bush Administrations spent more on defense space
>initiatives than on civilian space projects. Restore the historical
>funding equilibrium between NASA and the Defense Department's space
>program.

Translation:  we're going to cut the military space efforts too.

>...develop a National Launch System to maximize efficiency
>with scientific and commercial payloads.

Translation:  the launch industry will once again face major government-run
competition.

>Aim to establish a permanent human presence on the Moon and to send
>humans to Mars. Although we cannot yet commit major resources to
>these goals, they should be among the considerations that guide our
>science and engineering...

Translation:  we're not going to spend any money on them or start
any serious efforts toward them.

>... the costs should
>be borne by other nations as well as by the United States.

Translation:  our excuse will be that nobody else wants to either.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jul 92 16:19:46 GMT
From: "John A. Weeks III" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Facility Tours
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space,sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Theodore Wadsworth) writes:
> Does anyone know the charges for tours of the various NASA facilities
> (Huntsville Space Center, "Space Camp", ...)?

While I have yet to tour Huntsville, I have never encountered a charge
for admission to or tours of NASA facilities.  Most NASA sites have a
visitors center with reasonable hours (til 4 or 5 PM) and are usually
open almost every day of the week (except Goddard near Washington DC, which
is closed some days).  Some sites have really nice tours on a regular basis,
like Stennis in Mississippi (right off of I-10).  Others have tours by prior
reservation.  For example, Ames has a visitors center, museum, and gift
shop, but you need to make reservations two weeks in advance to go on the
weekly Friday tour of the facility.  Johnson Space Center has tours of
mission control available, but you need to pick up a free ticket beforehand
at the visitors center.  Go early because the mission control tours sometimes
fill up hours in advance.

For Huntsville info, call 1-800-633-7280 (or 1-800-572-7234 in Alabama).
Attractions include the Space Museum and Rocket Park, Spacedome Omnimax
Theater, and a 2 hour Nasa bus tour.  Plan to spend all day, and aviod
going there on the weekend.  Adults are $11.95, children $7.95 for all
attractions, or $6.95 for the museum only.  They are open every day of the
week until 5PM (6PM in the summer).

For Kennedy Space Center info, call 1-900-321-LIFT (75 cents per call), or
1-800-432-2153 in Florida.  Everything is free at KSC, except for the
IMAX theatre ($2.75 for adults) and the bus tour ($6 adults, $3 children).

For more information, check out the book "Kitty Hawk To Nasa" by Michael
Morlan.  It lists all major aircraft and space museums in the US.

-john-


-john-

--
==============================================================================
John A. Weeks III        [phone]            [e-mail]
Newave Communications, Ltd.                ..!uunet!tcnet!newave!john

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jul 92 19:40:01 GMT
From: Bruce Watson <[e-mail]>
Subject: first man on moon date and time
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]- [e-mail] (Mike M. Skala) writes:
-In article <[e-mail]-, [e-mail] (Phil G.
-Fraering) says:
--
--Everyone should know the date: July 20, 1969.
--
-
-Of course everyone knows the right date: 21.7.1969 02:56 GMT
-
-mike :)
-
-And I still have the 8mm my father took from the TV Screen !

Neat! We were using still cameras.

--
 __________________________________________________________________________
|[e-mail]|    "Another Case of too many scientists and     |
|Bruce Watson            |     not enough hunchbacks." -- Gary Larson      |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:38:26 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: GPS for satellite positioning
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles F Randall) writes:
>I've been told that there are _no_ satellites that use GPS for their
>positioning data. I find this hard to believe. I've seen
>advertisements for the Monarch GPS receivers in 'Space News'.

Bear in mind that satellites have long lead times and in recent years have
tended toward very conservative design.  The idea makes sense, it's just
that nobody has tried it in space yet.  I have a dim recollection that
there are plans for trials soon.

Bear in mind, also, that operational use is still hampered by the rather
incomplete satellite constellation.  There are times and places in which
there aren't enough satellites visible for effective use.

>It is my understanding that the current level of GPS is only capable
>of providing lat. and long. information and in the future, they plan
>to incorporate elevation. Is this correct?

No.  The GPS signals provide full three-dimensional positioning, given
that your receiver is sufficiently intelligent and that enough satellites
are in view.

>Finally, does anyone know if crew members of the Shuttle have taken up
>a hand held GPS unit?

I haven't heard of it.  Bear in mind that a lot of the handhelds are
deliberately limited in the speed and altitude they can handle, to ensure
that they are not useful for missile guidance.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 16:25:01 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Methods for meteor avoidance
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brendan Woithe) writes:
>After the meteor from last year passed withinn 4 minutes of the earth (the
>large one), I was wondering if we have any system of avoiding these
>large beasts??!! ...
>With a problem like this, surely there must be some defence!!!

There has been discussion of this, both in the past and recently.  The big
problem is detecting them far enough in advance.  Given adequate advance
warning, one could use large nuclear bombs to destroy or deflect the incoming
rock, in principle.  There is a practical problem in that the US currently
has no launcher adequate to the job; there are some things for which there
is no substitute for a Saturn V or equivalent.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 17:13:44 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: More Lunar Resource Mapper Information
Newsgroups: sci.space

And now, reformatted!

Here is some more Lunar Resource Mapper information that I have gleaned from
publications and proceedings. I hope this is of some interest.

    Gamma-Ray and Neutron Spectrometer for the Lunar Resource Mapper

One of the early Space Exploration Initiatives will be a lunar orbiter
to map the composition of the Moon. This mission is needed to support
further lunar exploration and habitation and will provide a valuable
dataset for understanding lunar geological processes. The payload will
consist of the gamma-ray and neutron spectrometer discussed here, an
X-ray fluorescence imager, and possibly one or two other instruments.
The spacecraft will be small (<100 kg), built on a fast schedule
(about three years), and have a low cost (about $100M including
launch). Launch is tentatively scheduled for April 1995. The program
will be similar to the ALEXIS (Array of Low- Energy X-ray Imaging
Sensors) program at Los Alamos, which is scheduled to be launched as a
small satellite in April 1992.

    Most gamma rays used to map lunar elements are in the energy
range of 0.2-8 MeV. The gamma-ray detector will contain a ~70%
efficient [relative to a 7.62-cm- diameter x 7.62-cm-length NaI(Tl)
scintillator] n-type germanium crystal. N-type is used because it is
much less susceptible to radiation damage than p-type germanium. No
annealing is planned because the radiation damage accumulated in the
one-year mission will not seriously degrade the energy resolution if
the crystal remains below 100 K. Because a Stirling cycle cooler will
be used, the crystal will be mounted ustechniques commercially
developed in recent years for operating germanium detectors on
vibrating platforms. A bismuth germanate (BGO) anticoincidence shield
on the sides and back of the germanium crystal will eliminate most
events due to charged particles, gamma rays produced by cosmic rays
incident on the spacecraft, and Compton- scattered events in the
crystal. A plastic scintillator over the nadir-pointing surface of the
germanium crystal will provide a similar capability in the forward
direction without significantly attenuating the gamma-ray flux from
the Moon. The gamma-ray detector will be on a short boom to further
reduce the background from the spacecraft.

    The critical issue for operating a germanium detector in space
is the method of cooling. For short missions, stored cryogens such as
liquid nitrogen, solid methane, or solid argon have been proposed. For
longer missions a passive radiator, as used on the Mars Observer, or
an active device, such as a Stirling cycle cooler, is required.

    We have chosen not to use a passive radiator because of the
complications in shielding the radiator from the Sun, Earth, and Moon
when the spacecraft is in a polar orbit and instead have chosen to use
the British Aerospace Stirling cycle cooler based on the Oxford
design. This closed-cycle mechanical cooler is designed for a 10-year
lifetime and has operated successfully in the laboratory without
maintenance for over three years. Two of these miniature cryocoolers
were launched on 12 September 1991 as part of the ISAMS multichannel
infrared radiometer on the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite, and
they are still operating successfully. Research is being done on these
coolers (1) concerning vibration, thermal performance, and
reliability.

    Because the germanium detector energy resolution is degraded
by vibration, we also will use a pair of these coolers with two
compressors and two expanders mounted back to back to minimize
vibration. In addition, we will use a low-distortion electronic
feedback system to minimize harmonics and a flexible vibration
decoupler between the expander cold tips and the germanium crystal.

    A neutron detector is required because it provides maximum
sensitivity for hydrogen and hence water. Data from the gamma-ray
detector and the neutron detector are complementary because the
neutron flux, which produces most gamma rays, is needed to normalize
the gamma-ray line intensities; in turn, the gamma-ray dattermine the
composition of the lunar surface and hence the moderation of neutrons
by elements other than hydrogen (2).

    Three different sensors are used to measure the neutrons in
three energy ranges. Thermal (E(sub)n ~ 0.01-0.4 eV) neutrons are
measured with a bare ^3He proportional counter, epithermal (E(sub)n ~
0.4-10^3 eV) neutrons with a ^3He proportional counter wrapped with
thermal-neutron-absorbing cadmium, and fast (E(sub)n ~ 0.5-10 MeV)
neutrons with a plastic scintillator and ^3He proportional counter
operated in coincidence (3). The thermal se the epithermal sensor will
be mounted on a short boom opposite the gamma-ray detector boom to
reduce neutron backgrounds. Ratios of the three count rates are very
sensitive to the amount of hydrogen in the lunar surface (4).

    The gamma-ray and neutron spectrometer will provide data on
almost all elements over all of the lunar surface. Published estimates
of the detection limits for similar detectors range from 0.016 ppm for
uranium to 1.3% for calcium (5). We estimate a hydrogen detection
limit of 100 ppm based on the neutron detector (4). The spatial
resolution is about 140 km x 140 km, which is determined by the orbit
altitude of 100 km (6). Both gamma rays and neutrons sense the
elemental composition of the lunar surface to depths of tens of
centimeters. The data from this instrument will complement the data
from the X-ray fluorescence imager (7), which has a resolution of 1 km
x 1 km for six elements.

[Figure w1, which appears in the hard copy here, shows the schematics
of a genegermanium detector with a split cycle Stirling cooler
(adopted from 5) and the neutron sensors for thermal, epithermal, and
fast neutrons.]  Work supported by NASA and done under the auspices of
the US DOE.

References

(1) Ross R. G. et al. (1991) Advances in Cryogenic Engineering, 37, in press.
(2) Reedy R. C. et al. (1992), this workshop.
(3)Jenkins R. W. et al. (1970) J. Geophys. Res., 75, 4197-4204.
(4))Feldman W. C. et al. (1991) Geophys. Res. Lett., 18, 2157-2160.
(5) Metzger(6) Reedy R. C. et al. (1973) J. Geophys. Res., 78, 5847-5866.
(7) Edwards B. C. et al. (1992), this workshop. Edwards B. C.*   Ameduri F.   Bloch J. J.
Priedhorsky W. C.   Roussel-Dupre D.Smith B. W.

Sorry about the slight overrun. I am still learning how to do this stuff. If
someone can grab this and reformat, go for it. Thank you

Me: Maybe if they installed a good copy of emacs at the site,...
Anyway, it took all of 20 seconds to reformat using M-q.

Dennis, University of Alabama in Huntsville


Phil


--
Phil Fraering [e-mail] where the x is a number from 1-5.
Phone: [phone]
"There are still 201969 unread articles in 1278 groups" - nn message
"57 channels and nothing on" - Bruce Springsteen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 11:21:28 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Propulsion questions

> Interesting system - you have to keep feeding it, whether you need
the
> drive or not, or it keeps heating up until it blows your ship to
> smithereens. :-)
>


Hmmm. The Little Ship of Horrors? :-)

I also seem to remember hearing a Filk song about "Some Fool to Feed
the Drive..."

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 02:18:40 GMT
From: John Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Radiative heat loss
Newsgroups: sci.space

-From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
-Subject: Re: If the sun went out-how long life survive?
-Date: 23 Jul 92 14:47:29 GMT
-Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

-The latent heat of the atmosphere is roughly 5.3E20 kWh. Radiative
-loss to maintain current equilibrium is 1.28E14 kW. That would require
-1.1E3 days to drop the temperature to 0 Kelvin, or 2.12 years to drop the
-average temperature to the liquification temperature of nitrogen, if
-radiative loss remained constant. Of course it does not. It varies with
-the square of the black body temperature.

The *square*? Please double-check.

John Roberts
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 16:31:17 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sat->Ground Optical Communications?
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles F Randall) writes:
>I know that optical communications systems are typically used for
>sat->sat comm. systems and can typically achieve approximately 300
>Mbits/s data rates.

Um, "typically"?  Barring possible classified programs, no such system
is yet operational.  All sat->sat systems currently go by microwave.

>However, I have heard that the US Navy uses (sometimes?) an optical
>communication system from sat->sub. I also heard that this can be done
>even with the submarine under the polar ice caps.

There has been talk about such things, and considerable research, since
the right optical wavelengths would penetrate water better than most
forms of radio, but as far as I know there is no hint of an operational
system.

>I'm wondering if there are currently any NASA funded research projects
>concerning sat->ground optical communications.

There have been little bits of research work on optical communication
for a long time.  I'd be surprised if NASA isn't doing something on it
at any random time.  But there's no big push for it that I know of.
--
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:32:02 GMT
From: _Floor_ <[e-mail]>
Subject: Star Trek and public perception of space/science/engineering
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Colby Kraybill) writes:
] In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bob Tidrick) writes:
] >
] >it alone!" We have no business disturbing something which may one day evolve
] >into a more complex form. However if nothing is found than it is a mear rock
] >and we have dibs.
]
]
] Wait a second.  Just by existing on *this* planet do we disturb the way
] everything else evolves.  By your logic, we should halt our existance on
] Earth.
]
] --
] Colby Kraybill
] Space and Planetary Image Facility
] University of New Mexico

  Hmmm... Both sides have a point. I think it'd be great to leave a planet
such as Mars alone for the purpose of watching it evolve. But I don't
think that would be too prudent. That would be like telling everyone
on earth to go back to Mesopotamia (or whereever, ifever, we all came
from) so we wouldn't interfere with evolution on the rest of the earth.
Besides, our presence may just help evolution along. I stress _may_.

  _____    "But you can't really call that a dance. It's a walk." - Tony Banks
 /  ___\  ___  __ ___   ___      _____________   [e-mail]
 | / __  / _ \ | /   \ / _ \     |  physics  |   [e-mail]
 | \_\ \ | __/ |  /\ | | __/     |racquetball|   [e-mail]
 \_____/ \___/ |_| |_| \___/     |volleyball |   [e-mail]
 Gene Van Buren, Kzoo Crew, Washington Univ. in St. Louis - #1 in Volleyball

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:24:44 GMT
From: "Vincent F. Scarafino" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Testers for Astronomy  -or- Get your act together!
Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms,comp.windows.ms.programmer,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,sci.astro,sci.space,sci.edu

[e-mail] (Tom Duenser) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Bergman-Terrell) writes:
> >
> >*** Beta Testers Needed for Windows 3.X Astronomy Program ***
> >
>
> 1) I noticed that your astronomy program just appeared
>    in comp.binaries.ibm.pc.
>
>    v19i034: alw108.zoo, Astronomy Lab for Windows (part 01/05)
>    etc.
>
>    So what is all the beta-fuzz about?
>    Is it a different version?
>
> 2) Be a latent masochist, I enjoy the thirty odd postings of
>    machine configurations, names, etc. Very informative!
>    I would nevertheless recommend that you use a TESTED
>    alias ( like [e-mail] ) for you future
>    postings.
>
> Tom
> --
> Tom Duenser                                [e-mail]
> COPHOS Development Team                    #include <std/disclaim.h>
Are you always so helpfull?

Vince

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:11:54 GMT
From: "J. Zufi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: UFO pics from the shuttle
Newsgroups: sci.space

Here is Melbourne we have this dreadfully bad dirt program called
Hard Copy which had an article showing footage from a shuttle mission
where this object is flying along and suddenly takes off at a 90 degree
angle - a second later this 'mist' goes flying across the screen at 90
degrees again! Is this a load of crap - what was it really?

J.Z.

--
[  Jonathan Zufi                  | [e-mail]
[  Robotics & Digital Technology  | [e-mail]
[  Monash Univeristy, Caulfield      | "A winner never quits; a quitter never wins"
[  Melbourne, Australia          |              traditional.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 05:44:02 GMT
From: Rich Travsky <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whales (SETI)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
  (russell wallace) writes:
> Whales are _not_ intelligent in any significant sense of the word. If
> they were, they could prove it in about 30 seconds, by any number of
> means (e.g. whistle the prime numbers, *-* *-*-* *-*-*-*-* etc. - for
> that matter just whistle the numbers from 1 to 10). In fact, if they

There's an assumption here about intelligence that just doesn't pan out.
Unfortunately it sorta depends on defining intelligence. I'd prefer not
to jump into that, thank you.

On the other hand, what would a whale do with knowing the prime numbers?
Why would a whale(s) need numbers? I have read (back when I took some
anthro) that some less technologically advanced _human_ cultures did
not have a numbering system that went much beyond "one, two, and many".
By the above metric, then, the people in these cultures are not
intelligent.

So long, and thanks for all the fish...

Richard Travsky
Division of Information Technology     RTRAVSKY @ CORRAL.UWYO.EDU
University of Wyoming                  (307) 766 - 3663 / 3668

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jul 92 03:00:25 GMT
From: John Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whales and dolphins
Newsgroups: sci.space

-From: [e-mail]
-Subject: Re: Whales and Dolphins
-Date: 23 Jul 92 10:53:24 GMT

-There is a difference. You are talking about a group breaking up in a
-free for all. Dolphins are the only other society in which GROUP A
-gets support of GROUP B against GROUP C for a specific project but
-when the situation changes, GROUP A will double cross GROUP B with
-the assistance GROUP C. The groups are basically stable. I do not
-remember enough details of the paper to say whether they are kinship
-groups or not. The situations do not appear to be random accident,
-but much more sophisticated plotting of actions. Probably closer to
-the relations between feudal lords than to a gang of hoods who fight
-for the loot among themselves after cooperating to get it...

Sounds reasonable.

So - if we manage to decode dolphin and killer whale communications, and
open diplomatic relations with them, will we have to "rehabilitate" them? :-)

John Roberts              | Dolphin researcher: "Matthews - we're getting
[e-mail] | another one of those strange 'aw blah es span yol'
                          | sounds."

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 15 : Issue 036
------------------------------